tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1811893258346327939.post5300863423383371669..comments2023-07-24T22:29:02.523-07:00Comments on Tangled Triangle: Visiting the Valente Brothers with Eddie KoneMeganhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13229873505463921052noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1811893258346327939.post-81706889172915530182013-05-07T20:14:09.860-07:002013-05-07T20:14:09.860-07:00See though...you're trivializing an element of...See though...you're trivializing an element of those classes that has a notable effect on who even shows up to focus on self defense. If you're goal is to get more women, you can't tell people "just focus on self defense"...it's gotta be deeper.Meganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13229873505463921052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1811893258346327939.post-31998408610902112852013-05-07T19:50:28.223-07:002013-05-07T19:50:28.223-07:00Jeez ladies. An attacker doesn't care if you a...Jeez ladies. An attacker doesn't care if you attended mixed classes or separate classes. Focus on your self defense. I googled and saw a video of a girl who ha only been attending a few months<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXSW6cSYWBkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1811893258346327939.post-6554101848706016792013-05-04T15:52:37.500-07:002013-05-04T15:52:37.500-07:00@Can...I know. When I first heard about the split ...@Can...I know. When I first heard about the split classes, I immediately questioned it, and I get the feeling that allowing women to attend the men's classes is a newer policy they have, but I support the change if that's the direction they're going in. I have to read up on the revisionist history...the story of Helio isn't something I've delved into too deeply.<br /><br />If I don't catch you in FL, it'll be somewhere:) <br /><br />@Anonymous, I'm quite clear on what makes segregated education a potential positive. Your comparison to Brown vs TBE misses one very important difference...you assume that women students' chances of staying in either type of class is the same. While Brown vs. TBE may have some lessons, we can't pretend we're addressing the same environment. School attendance is mandatory for most of a child's life and will have an enormous impact on the child's quality of life. That is in no way the same thing as an optional, recreational hobby, out of which, a person can drop at any time with almost no negative repercussions. We have to be highly mindful of comfort level when talking BJJ and women. I see it almost as a cousin to a Curves type of gym without the overt classification system. We have to be mindful that not everyone is working toward the same goal, and therefore, will not start from the same place. <br /><br />As you said, if this is a niche they cater to, it's fine. That's the impression I got from only one visit and that's what my opinion is based on.<br /><br />Of course there is a remote risk of the attitude of women being second class citizens becoming the norm, but what I'm seeing more of these days in jiu jitsu, is "tougher" women freely and proudly exhibiting their bias against women who may not be keen on fighting it out on the mats with men on a regular basis...and that strikes me very much as women internalizing the negative behavior of some men in jiu jitsu. I think there is a much greater risk of that growing.<br /><br />That's the thing about inclusion...if we genuinely want to see jiu jitsu expand as a community, we're going to have to take a second look at the system of gateways that we offer and promote, not just the end results. Meganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13229873505463921052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1811893258346327939.post-68372422226657790362013-05-04T15:46:17.296-07:002013-05-04T15:46:17.296-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Meganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13229873505463921052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1811893258346327939.post-90089878128700973382013-05-04T13:30:14.960-07:002013-05-04T13:30:14.960-07:00I think you miss the point of what makes gender se...I think you miss the point of what makes gender segregated education a positive environment for students. The point is not that these women are getting a quality education. The point is that these women are [probably] getting an unequal education. That's a guess on my part. Why do I think so? Because in your interview, the instructors say they focus on women who are more timid in spirit. Do these women benefit more from women only classes than mixed classes? Probably so. But expectations are lower, so they are basically in a special education class, where the criteria for that classification is being female. It's not the equivalent of going to an all women's college or high school where the instructors are both highly qualified and mostly female and expect great things from their students. <br /><br />If this is the niche they cater too, I guess that's okay. This country has room for all sorts, and I chose not to patronize their establishment because it doesn't cater to me. But I have a fear that this attitude could become pervasive, and women become second class citizens in the jiu jitsu community, especially if more bjj schools promote "Jiu jitsu for everyone" in an effort to grow. I know this is mostly an unrealistic fear, but as I mentioned above-- Brown v. Board of Education-- that sort of thing existed in the past. The lessons of history . . .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1811893258346327939.post-20481082863540264752013-05-01T08:30:54.559-07:002013-05-01T08:30:54.559-07:00Yeah, the way that the Valentes split classes by g...Yeah, the way that the Valentes split classes by gender is something I found very off-putting when I first heard about it a while back, I'm glad to hear that they do apparently also offer mixed gender classes. <br /><br />Womens-only classes are not a bad thing (as you know, I think that they can be an excellent thing, as we've discussed in the past), but if women are banned from attending any classes with men, that's a totally different and very negative situation.<br /><br />I also get the impression that the Valentes heavily push the Helio revisionist history, from what I've heard of them in interviews (though the bias is understandable, as from what I gather they spent a great deal of time with him).<br /><br />And yeah, I'm planning to rectify the 'haven't-met-Can' thing next year, hopefully. Planning on doing as many bits of the US as I can fit into two and a bit weeks, focusing on Florida. :)slideyfoothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05374174757753962274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1811893258346327939.post-36791434055039834102013-04-27T20:15:06.649-07:002013-04-27T20:15:06.649-07:00Thank you for bringing that up because I know ther...Thank you for bringing that up because I know there was a lot I either didn't clarify in this post or missed entirely. From what I was told, Pedro teaches the women's classes and serves as their model opponent for technique evaluation.<br /><br />I think the point you make about boys/girls schools is incredibly important here. When it comes to cerebral education, children are starting from a generally level playing field. When it comes to adults (the childrens' classes are mixed gender), this is absolutely not true. Women have spent years being conditioned to be gentle, nice, timid, deferential, controllable and even scared. As much as I'm inspired by the story of a woman fighting through the the difficulties of training with men, I'm coming to acknowledge that not all women are natural fighters...that not all of us were born with, or still have the will to challenge all the norms that BJJ throws in our faces. <br /><br />As long as the women in question are getting quality education, I believe that these women deserve the chance to learn BJJ just as much as any others, even if they have to take a different path. <br /> Meganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13229873505463921052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1811893258346327939.post-72254759022535129942013-04-27T19:02:40.161-07:002013-04-27T19:02:40.161-07:00I was in Ft. Lauderdale on business several years ...I was in Ft. Lauderdale on business several years ago and called the Valente place to see if I come to a class. The receptionist gave me the women's class schedule, and when I asked for the regular class schedule, she said women could only come to the women's classes. I'm always nervous about getting hurt in a strange gym, so an hour drive to a segregated class me off to visiting their school.<br /><br />While all boys and all girls schools have turned out some people with really great educations, when it comes to gender segregated bjj classes, I think Brown v. Board of Education had it right. When I see a women's class advertised on an academy website, it's almost never taught by the head instructor. Why settle for less because I'm a woman? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com